Is the North Pole melting?

[RU Joe]

CBC: Weather anomaly pushing North Pole temperatures above 0C

Please participate in the poll and let me know what you think?
When I read about I immediately thought:

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I still think Carbon Taxes are a bunch of BS, though.

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[George Riley]

Here is the thing. I believe global warming is happening, but in reality I don't think the consequences are as drastic as people make them out to be. Yeah, there will be a lot of flooding, and yeah, more hurricanes, and yeah people will have to move to higher ground.
But at the end of the day humanity will still move on. People make the false impression that it's end times. No, nothing cold be further from the truth.
Sides, great advancements have been made with electric vehicles. We are close to the point where an electric vehicle makes more sense to buy than a gas powered vehicle. The major obstacles has always been the price, the miles per charge, lack of electric charging stations, and the time to charge. But with the newer 300 miles per charge, and the building of many more charging stations, and these charging stations being super charging, and the price of the electric vehicle slowly going down, eventually things will tip towards the electric vehicle as the smart alternative(Yes, that was a HUGE run on sentence)

[Dudebro]

People don't wanna believe in man made climate change but it seems obvious that churning out tons and tons of pollutants into the climate will change it for the worse. If we look at places like China we can see the localized effects of pollution, why would it be much different on a global scale?

[Demon-Mask]

Climate change is very definitely happening and this is obviously going to have an effect on the polar ice caps and sea levels and all that fun stuff. Part of it is because of the natural cycle of freezing and thawing our planet has always been subject to, and largely as a result of human interference with the atmosphere and oceans and such.

I think the reason people are quick to dismiss it is because people tend to function on the level of right here, right now unless it's something intense and dramatic. Sea levels rising by up to eight inches over the past century doesn't sound like a lot, but when you think of the sheer volume of water that would take given the percentage of the earth's surface is water, it becomes a lot more frightening, especially since it's only going to accelerate as the population continues to grow and our various chemical emissions with it.

I mean, even as weather patterns change more and more, people still think of climate change as something that's either made up or insignificant, or that it's not their problem because they'll be dead by the time it starts to get real sketchy, which is a bad mindset to have about the future of the planet.

I mean, climate change would happen regardless most likely, but it would be a significantly slower process and more species would be able to adapt to it and obviously the amount of chemicals getting pumped into the air and water isn't good now and it'll really mess things up in the future. We can't stop climate change cycles, but we should probably try not to accelerate and amplify them.

[Dudebro]

it's not their problem because they'll be dead by the time it starts to get real sketchy

This is the scary one and sadly I think I a lot of people feel this way.

it would be a significantly slower process and more species would be able to adapt to it

This is the point a lot of the deniers don't seem to get. Adaptation isn't a quick process. If the world heats up too quickly we'll probably be left with just suffering humans, roaches, bedbugs and probably only jellyfish in the oceans. Life will mostly go on but it will not be a pleasant one.

[RU Joe]

Originally Posted by George Riley

Here is the thing. I believe global warming is happening, but in reality I don't think the consequences are as drastic as people make them out to be. Yeah, there will be a lot of flooding, and yeah, more hurricanes, and yeah people will have to move to higher ground.
But at the end of the day humanity will still move on. People make the false impression that it's end times. No, nothing cold be further from the truth.
Sides, great advancements have been made with electric vehicles. We are close to the point where an electric vehicle makes more sense to buy than a gas powered vehicle. The major obstacles has always been the price, the miles per charge, lack of electric charging stations, and the time to charge. But with the newer 300 miles per charge, and the building of many more charging stations, and these charging stations being super charging, and the price of the electric vehicle slowly going down, eventually things will tip towards the electric vehicle as the smart alternative(Yes, that was a HUGE run on sentence)

I know we are very adaptive and as things change we change also.
Sadly, rich and powerful Oil and Car Industries are reluctant to allow necessary changes fast enough, while at the same time perpetuating the myth that people 'need' cars, that cars are 'sexy' {or make the owner seem that way}, and of course the convenience and freedoms attached to car ownership are huge selling points. {literally}

Eventually, sometime around the year 2036, as I read in an article recently, those industries will be ready to begin making the changes you mentioned - toward 100% non - fossil fuelled vehicles .. hopefully this will not be 'too late'.
There's just too much money and power in their control, and they're not willing to let it go.

DB:

People don't wanna believe in man made climate change but it seems obvious that churning out tons and tons of pollutants into the climate will change it for the worse. If we look at places like China we can see the localized effects of pollution, why would it be much different on a global scale?

I'm not doubting the pollutants you mentioned are damaging the environment - and they are - but it's only one piece of a much larger 'pie' of destructive forces which large industries perpetuate, all in the name of the almighty economy.
So in that way they keep us where they want us, because without a good economy there will be no good jobs {nor anything else for that matter}, and we're already seeing the effects of that.

I'm glad you brought up China, where just recently their government announced a state of emergency and forced closure of schools and factories in areas where the pollution is particularly bad {which we now know is largely from diesel trucks' emissions, these trucks being both numerous and poorly regulated where their emissions' standards go largely unchecked - again, in the name of the economy}
The picture they posted with the story reminded me of the burning oil fields in the middle east all those years ago.

Yes, this is part of the problem without doubt.

DM:

Climate change is very definitely happening and this is obviously going to have an effect on the polar ice caps and sea levels and all that fun stuff. Part of it is because of the natural cycle of freezing and thawing our planet has always been subject to, and largely as a result of human interference with the atmosphere and oceans and such.

I think the reason people are quick to dismiss it is because people tend to function on the level of right here, right now unless it's something intense and dramatic. Sea levels rising by up to eight inches over the past century doesn't sound like a lot, but when you think of the sheer volume of water that would take given the percentage of the earth's surface is water, it becomes a lot more frightening, especially since it's only going to accelerate as the population continues to grow and our various chemical emissions with it.

I mean, even as weather patterns change more and more, people still think of climate change as something that's either made up or insignificant, or that it's not their problem because they'll be dead by the time it starts to get real sketchy, which is a bad mindset to have about the future of the planet.

I mean, climate change would happen regardless most likely, but it would be a significantly slower process and more species would be able to adapt to it and obviously the amount of chemicals getting pumped into the air and water isn't good now and it'll really mess things up in the future. We can't stop climate change cycles, but we should probably try not to accelerate and amplify them.

Good points, and you touched on that one I've been saying most of my life:
People don't think past their own/ their children's lifetimes, and it is this thinking which makes poor decisions seem 'Ok'.
For example, they may read the label on household cleaners which bear numerous warnings yet go ahead and use them because they believe they're 'too busy' and 'don't have time' for safer, healthier solutions like using vinegar, baking soda, or lemon juice in combination with time and 'elbow grease' instead of those dangerous {yet sometimes faster, easier}cleaners.

But the strongest point you made in my opinion is the notion that we are only around for a short time on this earth, and who cares what happens to the fish or w/e when we use Drano to unclog our sinks {as one example} despite the fact most of us now know it is the poorest choice to do so.
Couple this with the fact that certain personality types simply aren't capable of taking thoughts like this on board, and here we are.

OF ALL the things people have said so far regarding this current North Pole melting situation, no one mentioned the fact that the earth itself has shifted on its axis slightly toward the North in recent years:

Inuit Elders tell NASA Earth Axis Shifted

This would explain why similar melting is not occurring at the South Pole.
While this article sheds some light on the subject it also opens up new cans of worms.

The elders do not believe that carbon emissions from humans are causing the current climate changes.

But later in the article:

On April 20, 2011, CNN News reported that an earthquake moved the main island of Japan by 8 feet and shifted the Earth on its axis. They quoted Kenneth Hudnut, a geophysicist with the U.S. Geological Survey, as saying, "At this point, we know that one GPS station moved (8 feet), and we have seen a map from GSI (Geospatial Information Authority) in Japan showing the pattern of shift over a large area is consistent with about that much shift of the land mass."

The Scientists' conclusion?

They conclude that the shift is caused by climate change caused by global warming.

Personally I side with people who have watched the skies since before recorded {modern} history.
I'm not saying the Scientists are completely full of shit, but they go back and forth; first stating that this shift North was caused by a massive earthquake, then saying it's because of Global Warming ..
Maybe Al Gore came along and slipped an envelope of cash into their pockets in the interval?

[Demon-Mask]

It wouldn't make sense for the axis of rotation to shift due to climate change, climate change would happen as a result of the shift. It would definitely have to be caused by an earthquake, in addition to the natural, slow axis shift that just organically happens.

The climate change that happens as a result of human factors such as the depletion of the ozone layer and changes in the chemical balances of the air and seas as a result of pollution is entirely independent and the two sort of stack on-top of each-other. Pollution doesn't cause axial shifts and axial shifts don't cause pollution.

[Dudebro]

Personally I side with people who have watched the skies since before recorded {modern} history.

Why? They're just people staring up at the sky. They have little or no access to higher education or modern tools to measure and examine the problem. Elders saying the sky looks different isn't very helpful because of a few factors-
-eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable
-they only have their limited anecdotal evidence to back their claim up
-the massive scope of climate change is not something you can measure by looking at the sky in one part of the world for a few decades.
-they have no real access to the tools that could actually help them understand these changes.

I'm not saying the Scientists are completely full of shit, but they go back and forth

You may not be saying it but that's what you're implying by siding with the elders over countless scientists who dedicate their lives to studying this and have access to cutting edge technology.

Also science is never set in stone, theories change as new evidence is presented or old evidence is debunked or reexamined. Science is all about trying to disprove theories not the other way around. If some scientists got paid off to lie they'd be exposed because there'd be tons of other scientists testing their findings looking for holes. That's why science is reliable and the best way to see the natural world.

[RU Joe]

EASY there, big guy; I'm all for Science too but you have to admit that knowledge and long periods of observation of such things as cycles {found everywhere in nature} are every bit as valuable.

These:



were all made without modern Science {computers, satellites, orbiting devices, etc.} and the point I'm trying to make is, although the Eskimos and Inuit peoples didn't build pyramids { as far as I know} it doesn't make their long - time observation of the sky unworthy of our attention.

The guys who designed those pyramids were just looking up at the sky too, is what I'm getting at.

[Dudebro]

every bit as valuable.

No I don't agree with that. It may be good as a starting point but unless it's tested and verified using the scientific method it's not as valuable.

were all made without modern Science

Not true, they were made without the aid of the tools of modern science but they were made with the same ideals in mind. They didn't just create these one day on a whim, they tested, researched and collaborated with other experts.

The guys who designed those pyramids were just looking up at the sky too

It's not the same. The Inuit were nomads with no access to basic resources like iron or paper. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, they kept track of their history orally which is very unreliable. Like I said before it's a starting point but it's not comparable to scientific testing.

Btw I wanna be clear, I'm not disrespecting them as a people. I'd be saying the same thing about African, Asian, ect nomadic people.

[ARedLetterDay]

No, the North Pole is not melting. The Government isn't coming to take your guns. Obama is the savior of America. McRib is back. Observe. Listen. Obey. Everything is fine. Observe. Listen. Obey.

[RU Joe]

Originally Posted by Dudebro

No I don't agree with that.

This is no surprise.

It may be good as a starting point but unless it's tested and verified using the scientific method it's not as valuable.

'Tested and verified' -
That's what 'long - time observation of cycles' means.
If it wasn't tested and verified, it couldn't be called a cycle.

Not true, they were made without the aid of the tools of modern science but they were made with the same ideals in mind. They didn't just create these one day on a whim, they tested, researched and collaborated with other experts.

What about the ongoing debate that man couldn't have made the pyramids due to the weight of the stones, the distance from the quarries, etc?
'Experts' and 'modern science' both can't agree on how they were made.

But we're speaking more on the precise alignment of the structures, and on that I can only say that yes, they must have used compasses and othersuch devices which I suppose could be linked to 'modern science' - but all this having taken place thousands of years ago negates the link to 'modern' times.

WHEN we analyze what science is, we have to look to its foundations: people who observed certain events and phenomena over time, and began studies on those things.
So how is it different than the Inuit and Eskimos observing the sky over thousands of years - the only differences I see are that these peoples had no connection to the 'modern' scientific community, and they don't wear white coats and work in a laboratory.

Ultimately I'm saying that experts come in many different forms, and not all of them are members of this 'modern' scientific community.
Just because their information isn't cataloged or categorized in some database doesn't make it worthless.

Red:

No, the North Pole is not melting. The Government isn't coming to take your guns. Obama is the savior of America. McRib is back. Observe. Listen. Obey. Everything is fine. Observe. Listen. Obey.

Don't forget the Mc Hula.



^
Scientifically formulated and tested, by the way.

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[Dudebro]

That's what 'long - time observation of cycles' means.

Not when it's recorded by word of mouth. If it was recorded in some way it could at least be trusted to be somewhat accurate, depending on how they're able to measure and verify it.

What about the ongoing debate that man couldn't have made the pyramids due to the weight of the stones, the distance from the quarries, etc?
'Experts' and 'modern science' both can't agree on how they were made.

Can you link a serious scientist who thinks it was impossible for us to build the pyramids? We don't know the exact methods but from what I've read it's not seen as impossible, just mysterious. There's lots of theories on how it was done but unfortunately we'll probably never be able to verify it because we can't reproduce the conditions they were built in. It would be very hard to get 20-50k volunteers to work for close to 100 years on a project for people they think are gods. Besides the workforce and motivation we'd have trouble because we don't know their exact methods. It's clear that they perfected their art so it's not like aliens came down and divined this method on the spot. Other ancient structures nearby show clear signs of progress towards the ones we see in Giza.

But we're speaking more on the precise alignment of the structures, and on that I can only say that yes, they must have used compasses and othersuch devices which I suppose could be linked to 'modern science' - but all this having taken place thousands of years ago negates the link to 'modern' times.

Pyramid building cultures are considered advanced for their time, as far as I know. They were the modern scientists of their day.

So how is it different than the Inuit and Eskimos observing the sky over thousands of years

Oral tradition, eye witness testimony is unreliable and often riddled with bias and contradictions. Lack of resources to build appropriate tools. I don't claim to be an expert but I doubt any nomadic people could be considered scientifically literate until they settle and contact modern civilizations, like the Inuit meeting Europeans and getting access to stuff like iron.

Just because their information isn't cataloged or categorized in some database doesn't make it worthless.

I never said worthless, I said not on the same level as real science. I also said it's a starting point and that's not a bad thing at all. Science starts with observations right?

Don't forget the Mc Hula.

I wish I could forget that image.

[Razeluxe]

Originally Posted by ARedLetterDay

No, the North Pole is not melting. The Government isn't coming to take your guns. Obama is the savior of America. McRib is back. Observe. Listen. Obey. Everything is fine. Observe. Listen. Obey.

McRibs suck. the sauce is way too watery.

[Kong]

Scientist are pretty confident they know how the pyramids were built. The Great Pyramid at Giza was built in 23 years by 20-30K indentured servants using sleds on wet sand and plaster covered mud ramps. There are hieroglyphics showing the methods, left over ramps and sleds, and the process was recreated recently to prove it's possible.

[RU Joe]

Red, I hope you know I'm kidding with the 'Tinfoil hat - engage!' picture; my tinfoil hat is fused directly to my skull.

DB, I know what you're saying but I don't think you give {regular} people enough credit.
Just saying.

Raze, I agree with you but expand that notion: I say, everything about Mc Donalds' sucks.

Kong, I recently watched a video about this building method you mentioned and it does seem credible.
After all, if it's written on the walls then it must have been so.

'So let it be written, so let it be done'

[Dudebro]

DB, I know what you're saying but I don't think you give {regular} people enough credit.

After all, if it's written on the walls then it must have been so.

I'm sensing some sarcasm here. Shouldn't we trust the directions carved into the structures by the builders? That seems like a very credible source.

[RU Joe]

No sarcasm, just face value; the ancient Egyptians documented almost every aspect of their lives in detail.

Yes there are a lot of stupid people, but sometimes stupidity arises through over - intellectualizing.