Some people are just very stupid

[Dudebro]

U.S. motorcycle missionaries attacked in Haiti - CNN.com

These Christian Motorcyclists decided it was a good idea to go to Haiti and give free motorcycles to pastors. I guess they missed the memo about the horrible earthquake and recent cholera outbreak. Who would've guessed that these desperate people would be angry over these people bringing free bikes to preachers instead of actually helping the people in need.

On top of that-

Originally Posted by one of the moronic missionaries

"I feel like God protected us," Gibson said. "Just the fact that the bus stopped, died right in front of the U.N. compound, is confirmation that he's looking out for us."

Yeah god is protecting them! I guess he just wanted to test their faith by having these angry heathens chase them, set up a roadblock, attack their bus with machettes and beat up the Haitian worker they were with(he doesn't count for gods protection I guess).

Seriously though, how stupid can these people be? There are literally people homeless and dieing of cholera and they wanna help the priests get around better? They deserve whatever they get imo.

[Demon-Mask]

The general population of Haiti is living in extreme poverty.
Massive earthquakes recently.
Cholera outbreak.
The priests have it much better than the general public.
"Hey, let's give the priests motorcycles!"
Go to give priests motorcycles.
Somehow surprised that they were attacked by the poor, disease ridden public.
"God protected us by having us get attacked."


No, those missionaries are stupid as hell.
Maybe they should have taken the money they spent on motorcycles and bought non-perishable food and went down and distributed it to the general public in Haiti.

[tanc24]

Why do you guys even think the missionaries were down there in the first place? And How ironic would it be if they were actually down in Haiti to HELP the victims of the earthquake?

[Dudebro]

Originally Posted by tanc24

Why do you guys even think the missionaries were down there in the first place?

The very first line in the linked article-

The Christian Motorcyclists Association came to Haiti to distribute motorcycles to pastors

And further down-

One of its goals, Gibson said, is to donate motorcycles to Christian leaders.

Originally Posted by Tanc

And How ironic would it be if they were actually down in Haiti to HELP the victims of the earthquake?

I have no doubt that there are christian groups there helping the people but these ones specifically came to do this. If there was other humanitarian effort to go along with giving priests motorcycles I didn't hear about it and the article made a point of leaving it out.

Like DM said they should've used all that money(buying the bikes and shipping them to Haiti must've been expensive) to help the people who are homeless and threatened by an epidemic. It's just in such bad taste and with seemingly no comprehension of how wrong it must seem to those desperate people. They claim god was helping them escape the protesters, where was god when these protesters loved ones were being killed by an earthquake or dieing of cholera? Seems like a pretty ignorant and arrogant thing to say. Like I said, they deserve what they get.

[jim5cents]

Like I said, they deserve what they get.

Really? They deserve to get beat and possible killed by an angry mob? Are they ignorant and stupid? Sure they are. Is their cause as equally as stupid? Yep. But that doesn't deserve mob justice.

At least these people are volunteering their time, money, and lives for a cause they believe it. That is a hell of a lot more than the people back here in the states that are too busy playing armchair quarterback, preaching about the poor people and disperate situation in Haiti when they aren't willing to lift a finger themselves.

[tanc24]

Well said, Jim.

I know you like to play devil's advocate, DB, but I think your viewpoint is pretty narrow minded in this case. It's not like this group came down from the US to hand out motorcycles for the pastor's leisure. I'm guessing these vehicles were intended to be put to good use and further the aid efforts that are so desperately needed. I can't prove that of course, but call me an optimist.

A quote from the article: We put wheels under indigenous local pastors," Gibson explained.

I think it would be one thing if the bikes were intended for American missionaries, but these bikes were obviously intended for the use of local, Haitian pastors.
Overall, it's just another sad article from a very impoverished, devastated country. I feel very sorry for the Haitians and applaud anyone who is down there to help.

[Dudebro]

Originally Posted by jim5cents

Really? They deserve to get beat and possible killed by an angry mob? Are they ignorant and stupid? Sure they are. Is their cause as equally as stupid? Yep. But that doesn't deserve mob justice.

Yeah it's a harsh thing to say but I think they deserve what happens to them. What they did is adding insult to the injured people who live there. It's not surprising that these supposed missionaries had to hide in their hotel until a pastor gave them the all clear to flee the country. Why do we think the protesters were after them? I haven't heard of these people attacking actual aid workers, have you? The bottomline is if these morons didn't go down there with such a stupid motive they wouldn't be in this situation.

At least these people are volunteering their time, money, and lives for a cause they believe it. That is a hell of a lot more than the people back here in the states that are too busy playing armchair quarterback, preaching about the poor people and disperate situation in Haiti when they aren't willing to lift a finger themselves.

So what you're saying is I shouldn't be talking since I haven't done my share to help? I don't follow that kind of guilt trip logic. I'm a relatively smart person and I am able to give my perspective on this situation just as much as someone who went down there to bring bikes to priests. At least I have the best interests of the haitian people in mind. All they care about is giving pastors bikes so they can push their agenda on a weaken people who need real relief and not just some flowery words and promises of salvation. The point of this organization is evangelism. They wanna give bikes to the pastors so they can spread the faith and all that typical stuff. They are arrogant and ignorant, bring some damn food or send some money so they can build homes and fight cholera. I have no sympathy for these people, sorry if that bothers you guys.

Originally Posted by Tanc

I'm guessing these vehicles were intended to be put to good use and further the aid efforts that are so desperately needed. I can't prove that of course, but call me an optimist.

Fine, you're an optimist. They are just another religious group who's point is to spread their faith through any means at their disposal. They sent bikes so the pastors could get around better and in turn preach to the destitute population at a time when they are weakest. I find that to be disgusting and insensitive, how about you?

[joz]

I agree with DB. If they wanted to help the people, they would have helped with food, water and shelter and medicine.

[jim5cents]

How is it you took what I said to mean a personal attack on you? Also, why would I assume that you haven't made some sort of contribution to the Haitian relief? It isn't always the world vs. DB.

Personally, I think if this group wants to give bikes, that is fine. Those bikes will be in service to the pastor that receive them for years. If they took food or water, that would be gone in days.

The thing that also bugs me about this is the Haitians. Oh, the poor, poor Haitians. All starving, all sick, all of their homes destroyed. Yet they find the time and effort to hunt down this group and attack them? What a joke. You know who needs to get what they deserve, the leaders of that mob. You want to talk about a group that pushed their agenda on a weakened people. The leaders of that mob. Those guys are the problem, organizing the locals into attacking UN forces.

On a side note, one of the tennis coaches at the school I work at went to Haiti. Did he bring food? Nope, took a tennis racket. Taught a bunch of kids to play tennis and gave his testimonial. So does that make him a stupid, ignorant fool? No. Some people are better suited to teach tennis, or give bikes than to hand out food or water. It doesn't mean their efforts should be of any less value and definately not deserving of being assualted.

[joz]

Originally Posted by jim5cents

H
. If they took food or water, that would be gone in days.
.

all it takes is a few days without water to DIE...if I was in a situation like that, I would much rather people bring me food and water instead of a bike.

[Dudebro]

How is it you took what I said to mean a personal attack on you?

That seemed to be your point, sorry I read it wrong.

Personally, I think if this group wants to give bikes, that is fine. Those bikes will be in service to the pastor that receive them for years. If they took food or water, that would be gone in days

So giving bikes over relief aid is fine? I just don't get that. Sell the bikes and give the people some help sounds like a much better idea imo. It also sounds a lot more "christian" imo, but I'm no christian.

The thing that also bugs me about this is the Haitians. Oh, the poor, poor Haitians. All starving, all sick, all of their homes destroyed. Yet they find the time and effort to hunt down this group and attack them? What a joke. You know who needs to get what they desire, the leaders of that mob. You want to talk about a group that pushed their agenda on a weakened people. The leaders of that mob.

I agree that the instigators deserve what they get too but I have a hard time being sympathetic to the morons with the bikes. If I was in the Haitians position I would be angry too and I might even protest and seek justice, as they see it.

So does that make him a stupid, ignorant fool?

No but it does seem like a pretty stupid thing to bother with. I think his intentions were better than the bikers but it still would've been more productive to actually help the population. How does Tennis help them exactly?

[jim5cents]

So giving bikes over relief aid is fine?

Sure. Obviously, giving all bikes and no aid wouldn't fly, but consider that there are probably limited numbers of groups that give bikes and hundreds, if not thousands that are donating food. If that is the contribution they want to make, then more power to them.

I agree that the instigators deserve what they get too but I have a hard time being sympathetic to the morons with the bikes. If I was in the Haitians position I would be angry too and I might even protest and seek justice, as they see it.

If they had been a normal relief group, would you be sympathetic to them? It doesn't appear that they were targeted for this reason. It seems that the Haitian mob is targeting anyone that is associated with the relief effort. Specifically because this group (the mob) is blaming the UN for the cholera outbreak. Would you have the same response if the group was called "Calls from God" and they handed out cell phones?

How does Tennis help them exactly?

In the same sense that the USO helps the soldiers. Entertainment, raises morale. Provides a little bit of distraction from the chaos that these people live through everyday. Does that put food in their stomachs? No, of course not. I think the group he went with did a food drive though.

My point still is this. The bike group didn't deserve to have their lives threated by a mob. In this country and all of the world, people say and do completely ridiculous things. Rarely do they end up at the point of a machete or threated to be lit on fire. If they spout off some rhetoric, they don't serve that either. It is in completely poor taste to praise God and act like that he only cares about you and not those (Haitian) people

[Demon-Mask]

The food and water may only last days, but you can't last all that long without water, a few days, maybe a week.
If you are sick, like a good percentage of people in Haiti are, you can't last as long without water.
If you are generally unhealthy due to a lifetime of malnourishment, you can't last as long without water.

My point is this, the missionaries had their priorities way the hell out of order, a more acceptable order would be this
Water > Food > Medical supplies > Housing > Clothing > Motorcycle

[tanc24]

Originally Posted by Dudebro

They sent bikes so the pastors could get around better and in turn preach to the destitute population at a time when they are weakest. I find that to be disgusting and insensitive, how about you?

Read this again, DB. Do you really believe that is the sole reason why they sent the bikes? So a pastor can convert a vulnerable and destitute population?

Originally Posted by jozman3000

I agree with DB. If they wanted to help the people, they would have helped with food, water and shelter and medicine.

Do either one of you realize how much aid Christian organizations provide to relief efforts all over the world? I get the impression you guys think religious groups are present only to convert people to their particular faith. Believe it or not, the primarily goal in these circumstances is to provide aid, not to take advantage of a hurting population.

Here's an example of just one organization's recent efforts in Haiti:

18 November 2010 - Close to 10,000 people have been affected by the cholera outbreak in Haiti and the disease continues to spread geographically and in magnitude.
The infection rate is likely to be accelerated by poor sanitary conditions in many parts of the country, combined with the flooding and mud created in some regions by Hurricane Tomas. Those most at risk are people living in camps in and around Port-Au-Prince.
More than 1,000 people have died. However, while the number of cases continues to rise, the number of deaths is falling; showing that medical interventions are working and the vast majority of people affected are surviving.
Christian Aid and our ACT Alliance partners continue to work to prevent the spread of cholera: distributing water purification tablets, hygiene kits and cleaning products, and sharing information with communities on preventing the spread of disease.

• Women’s Health Collective, a partner in the Dominican Republic partner, is working in the border area of Haiti and Dominican Republic, in the communities of Belladere and Elias Pina. Thousands of Haitians live here, many displaced from Port-au-Prince by the earthquake.
  It hopes to control and prevent the spread of cholera in these communities through training community trainers on how to reducing the spread of the disease. These trainers will then share their knowledge with the local communities and schools.
  
  It is also producing information posters and fliers for distribution. Chlorine, water purification tablets and rehydrating solutions will be provided and in total, around 10,000 people will be reached through this project.
• POZ is working on cholera prevention in Nippes, the west, south and south east of the country. It is carrying out safe hygiene sessions including information on handwashing. It has reached 12,000 people so far.
• Haiti Survie has produced posters and booklets to encourage hygienic practices for use in the camps in Port-au-Prince and hopes to prevent the spread of cholera.
• SSID is working in the camps on the border with Dominican Republic, sharing information with community leaders and ensuring this information is then spread through the communities.
• APROSIFA is working in some of the most deprived areas of Port-au-Prince, distributing water purification tablets and using their field staff to share cholera prevention information
• Dominican Republic partner JRS is working to counter the message that Haitian migrants are cholera carriers, building on the good work that has been achieved in bringing the two nations closer together since the earthquake
  
• NCA is responding with increased chlorination of water in the camps. The frequency for cleaning of latrines has been increased. Camp committees are being trained in how to react in case of suspicion of cholera.
• FCA is planning to distribute water purification tablets, oral rehydration salts, jerry cans to 20,000 students, their families and community members through the schools it works with in Leogane.

Anyway, perhaps I'm getting off topic. Do I believe those people who brought those bikes are stupid? No. They probably knew the risks before they left their comfortable digs in the United States. If they didn't, then they are stupid. I believe they felt that the contribution they were making would not just help the pastors who received the motorcycle, but all the people who the pastor and his assistants could reach.

[Kugyince]

@DB: I was the one who rated you down. I don't like to rate down anonymously.

[Dudebro]

Originally Posted by jim

Sure. Obviously, giving all bikes and no aid wouldn't fly, but consider that there are probably limited numbers of groups that give bikes and hundreds, if not thousands that are donating food. If that is the contribution they want to make, then more power to them.

I disagree but I won't keep arguing the point since I doubt we'll convince each other about it. I just think they should give real aid and wait on the frivolous gifts for their clergy.

If they had been a normal relief group, would you be sympathetic to them? It doesn't appear that they were targeted for this reason. It seems that the Haitian mob is targeting anyone that is associated with the relief effort. Specifically because this group (the mob) is blaming the UN for the cholera outbreak. Would you have the same response if the group was called "Calls from God" and they handed out cell phones?

Yes if it was a normal aid group I would have sympathy, christian or not. These people were not there to directly help the population so I think they were in the wrong and they should've stayed home or sent some real aid.

I know about the UN issue and I know it's stupid on the mobs part but that speaks more about their desperation than anything else, imo. They have a major earthquake and when the UN shows up to help they get a cholera outbreak. I don't think the UN had a part in it but I can see why these people might put that together.

In the same sense that the USO helps the soldiers

That's what I figured and that's fine. To me that is different than handing out free bikes to pastors though. One helps the people and the other helps just the clergy who probably don't need as much help anyways.

Originally Posted by Tanc

Read this again, DB. Do you really believe that is the sole reason why they sent the bikes? So a pastor can convert a vulnerable and destitute population?

Yeah I do believe that was their motive, not the only motive but the main one. The fact that they didn't bring anything else(according to the article) leads me to believe that they felt this was as important as relief aid and I strongly disagree with that. Imo they have their priorities all messed up. They are openly about evangilism so it's not really a stretch.

Do either one of you realize how much aid Christian organizations provide to relief efforts all over the world?

Yes I do and I already said I have no doubts that they're there in Haiti along side these bikers. That doesn't make it any better though. The country is still in extreme turmoil and they need real aid, not better mobility for priests. Bad timing and bad taste imo.

I get the impression you guys think religious groups are present only to convert people to their particular faith.

Not the only reason but it's naive to think that isn't one of their goals.



@Tenser- I appreciate the honesty but you could've at least mentioned why you felt the need to rate me down.

[tanc24]

It's all good. I'm already tired of debating the issue.

@ Tenser - Totally unrelated, but your signature ROCKS. I happened to be watching the Amazing Race when that happened and I was crying laughing. I must've hit rewind on my DVR about a dozen time.

[Dudebro]

It's all good. I'm already tired of debating the issue.

Me too but I hate to leave posts unanswered. Agree to disagree then right?

[Kugyince]

@Tanc: Thanks. I don't watch the show but the day after it aired I heard about it on a morning talk radio show and looked it up on youtube.

@DB: Sorry, that was unintentional. I meant to add the reason. It was for defending your stance that the attempted murder was justifiable. I thought you were being excessive to make a point but not only defending but also reiterating that point caused me to rate you down.

[Dudebro]

That's understandable. To be clear I wasn't advocating murder specifically. The one guy who did get attacked had no serious injuries and it seems like the mob just wanted to send a message. A message laced with violence but still a message.

[tanc24]

Originally Posted by Dudebro

Me too but I hate to leave posts unanswered. Agree to disagree then right?

Exactly. I'll pray for you though.

[Dudebro]

By all means pray for me if you want. I'm able to accept my fate either way but it can't hurt to have people put in a good word for me.

[tanc24]

Just remember, the choice is yours.

[DrunkN]

Originally Posted by tanc24

Just remember, the choice is yours.

We can give ourselves all the choice we want, I think that end we just believe what we believe and trying to change is pointless as you'll still have doubts.

Any pics of those motorcycles?

[jim5cents]

Agreeing to disagree is fine.

I am just going to chime in with some final comments, none of which are directly related to the attack on the bike group.

Distributing bikes is hardly frivolous. I would not be surprised if bicycles or motorbikes are the primarly mode of transportation in Haiti. I would also imagine that there are gas shortages and many areas that are inaccessable by car or truck. Providing of bikes allows for greater mobility and the possiblilty of extending your relief efforts.

Providing bikes has a much longer effect than providing food. In the long run, will results in more people receiving aid.

Originally Posted by dn

Any pics of those motorcycles?