I say the money isn't related because I'm mainly discussing the issue of women in gaming, not her specifically. Seeking attention and/or money doesn't change what I'm talking about. Sure she seems to be a scammer who used an issue to raise money I don't have a problem with that point.
I do have a problem with you trashing the feminists who follow her. What she's saying is appealing to them, it deals with issues that matter to them. Calling them retarded because they trust this woman is retarded. Really.
You seem to have deeper issues with women that I don't think we need to get into. All I'm gonna say is that's just your opinion man.
The difference is the uber male characters aren't meant as sex objects. Male characters also run the full range of personalities where women are type cast into mainly barely dressed and helpless. Think of it from a female perspective. If the only choices to represent you are sex dolls it's not gonna be as cool to play a character. Maybe if the trend changed we'd have a lot more girl gamers?
You and steven are entitled to your opinion but you're not gonna be allowed to call other users ignorant for their opinions. Not saying you have, just saying.
I say the money isn't related because I'm mainly discussing the issue of women in gaming, not her specifically. Seeking attention and/or money doesn't change what I'm talking about. Sure she seems to be a scammer who used an issue to raise money I don't have a problem with that point.
I do have a problem with you trashing the feminists who follow her. What she's saying is appealing to them, it deals with issues that matter to them. Calling them retarded because they trust this woman is retarded. Really.
You seem to have deeper issues with women that I don't think we need to get into. All I'm gonna say is that's just your opinion man.
The difference is the uber male characters aren't meant as sex objects. Male characters also run the full range of personalities where women are type cast into mainly barely dressed and helpless. Think of it from a female perspective. If the only choices to represent you are sex dolls it's not gonna be as cool to play a character. Maybe if the trend changed we'd have a lot more girl gamers?
You and steven are entitled to your opinion but you're not gonna be allowed to call other users ignorant for their opinions. Not saying you have, just saying.
The point about the money is. She is a scammer. She does absolutely nothing. And yet, people are willing to listen to her. Kotaku (while I consider them horrible, they are still popular) has listed her as one of their "gamers of the year". For nothing. She has done absolutely nothing. She is gaining the ear of developers/publishers...... for doing nothing. This is my issue.
I have absolutely no issues with women. You're saying that because I said I absolutely hate what modern day femenism is, that I have an issue with women? I can't even understand how you can come with such a conclusion. I hate Westboro must mean I hate christians, right? Because that's what you're saying.
Yes, I am trashing the people that follow her. Just because she appeals to them, does that make her right? The KKK appeals to people, so does that make it okay? DieCisScum appeals to transgenders, so everything's alright with that too, right?
So buff naked men are fine, but naked women's where we draw the line. Well at least I know which team you're rooting for now. (yes that was a joke).
Let's look at some video games and how all of them are just using sex to sell and objectifying women.
Lara Croft
negatives: large breasts.
positive: Treasure hunter, always wins/beats the bad guys/gets the treasure, super smart, very rich, very athletic.
SO MUCH OBJECTIFYING, RIGHT GUYS?
Dead or Alive
I'll give you this one. This is made from pandering. That being said, I feel it's not something that should be taken too seriously. even the developers don't take it seriously, but it does raise the point. To be fair though, it's a decent fighter so saying that people only buy it for the boobs is a bit off.
Beyond Good and Evil
Oh wait, noone remembers that game. Especially since it does absolutely nothing to help their cause
Mass Effect
Camel toe on robot. Blame bioware being pants on head retarded. Seriously, it's a robot. The hell? Just make sure to ignore the other cast of self sufficient females, and the fact that you can be one, and you might have a point. (Also ignore the super buff gay love interest. That's an accurate representation of gay men)
Spelunky (Since Anita brought this one up)
Damsel in distress trope. You have to save a woman (that is literally called 'Damsel') trapped in a cave. How dare they show women as such weak and helpless characters! I mean, sure you also save men in the exact same fashion and which one you get is completely random. But how dare they!
And please try to actually dispute some of these claims instead of hiding behind your little passive-aggressive wall you got going on.
@Raze, keep in mind that DB often plays devils advocate for the sake of arguing. He might not actually be as delusional as he is letting on.
Again good post, between your points and Tensers points, I think that the evidence that Anita is either a troll, a fraud, or a moron is pretty convincing.
@Steven- Thanks for once again insulting people who have different opinions than yours, real classy. If you ever wonder why no one wants to have a serious discussion with you this would be why.
@Razeluxe- You're getting a little too heated about this. I'm not trying to pick a fight with either of you I'm just expressing my opinions and trying to get you guys to see it from my perspective. I figured that's what you'd be doing too. Obviously we tend to take shots at each other around here but it's not supposed to be mean spirited.
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I have absolutely no issues with women.
Really?
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But you know, this all just goes hand in hand with modern day feminism. we get stuff like Slutwalk and rape accusations left and right, up and down and all around. But even the ones that are fake won't be punished because they're afraid that if they do, more people won't come out and tell the truth. Women are wanting free passes to everything (even though they already get tons of benefits). And guess what...They're getting them.
Sure sounds like you got issues with women to me. I don't wanna get into it, I just made a comment because I disagree with the way you lumped them all into this paranoid description. Women just wanna be equal, they are not out to get us because we're men.
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Just make sure to ignore the other cast of self sufficient females, and the fact that you can be one, and you might have a point.
I'm a big fan of the series I know plenty about this. All the female characters on the Normandy are dressed up like sex dolls. You have a couple tough girl vixen types and a couple nerdy sexy girl types. None of them are "normal". To contrast that you have several different male types that are not about sex appeal. This isn't a good game to bring up about this issue, it's like old Star Trek were the men are men and the women are easy on the eyes.
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And please try to actually dispute some of these claims instead of hiding behind your little passive-aggressive wall you got going on.
I'm not hiding at all. If there's anything specific you'd like me to answer just ask. I will not go out of my way to list all the examples of poorly made female characters though, there's thousands to pick from.
Jesus christ you can't read. You know what, if you're going to ignore the things I say and give absolutely no points of your own, I'm done. All you do is come in and give absolutely no points of your own and just go "oh no you're wrong because I said so".
And ffs look stuff up. Do some research for once in your damn life or something. Don't try to talk about a topic if you don't know anything about it.
I'm not coming back to this thread, don't bother responding.
I know it's like, 1:30 in the morning, and people tend to say things they normally might not at any other hour, but I still don't see why Raze feels so intense about this. I can understand that the matter upsets him but I don't think I've seen anything get to him like this.
Sure sounds like you got issues with women to me. I don't wanna get into it, I just made a comment because I disagree with the way you lumped them all into this paranoid description. Women just wanna be equal, they are not out to get us because we're men.
So me saying "I hate modern feminism" means "I hate women" to you. What is wrong with you?
If there are so many examples, give me some. You know, you keep talking about how you're just trying to have a discussion and stuff, but how can we discuss anything if you don't try and make any points? All you do is say "well I don't think this" or "Well I don't see the problem with this" and "Well that's nice but there's lots of other things", without giving any evidence or backing. If this is what you consider discussion then you need to go look up what the word means.
And ffs look stuff up. Do some research for once in your damn life or something. Don't try to talk about a topic if you don't know anything about it. In fact, here.
There's some videos that I found interesting about the matter. Also it's a pretty known fact that women get special treatment in life. Where is all this sexism and whatnot exactly? (and before you say it, "it's around" is not a good answer. give points, facts, evidence. If you're wanting to actually discuss something, that is.)
(sorry I had to delete the earlier message. I was trying to reword it and stuff, but ended up going past the edit time limit or whatever.)
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Originally Posted by DrunkN
I know it's like, 1:30 in the morning, and people tend to say things they normally might not at any other hour, but I still don't see why Raze feels so intense about this. I can understand that the matter upsets him but I don't think I've seen anything get to him like this.
Sorry. one of my pet peeves is people slamming doors.
and another is people trying to talk about a topic without knowing much about it. study. research. back up your claims. counter-argue. do something! ya'know?
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@The Nintendo thing- Confirmation that they don't care about their older fans. They screw them over to shelter kids from content they can get from a quick google search. I bet they backtrack on it and say it was an accident.
“At Nintendo we always aim to provide a safe gaming experience for fans of all ages and ensure that we comply with applicable legal age restriction requirements across Europe. Legal age restriction requirements vary across a number of European countries. Since Nintendo of Europe is based in Germany, Nintendo eShop is complying with German youth protection regulation which therefore applies to all our European markets. Under German law, content rated 18+ must be made available only at night. Therefore the accessibility of 18+ content in Nintendo eShop is limited to [USK: 22:00 UTC until 4:00 UTC] [PEGI: 23:00 UTC until 3:00 UTC].” - Nintendo of Europe spokesperson
@Razeluxe - Did I do something to you before this discussion? You seem unnaturally hostile for some reason.
Here's a definition of feminism so we can be clear about what it means-
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Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist is "an advocate or supporter of the rights and equality of women".[3]
The vast majority of women are feminists, because they seek equal rights and treatment. You'll be hard pressed to find many women who are against the movement besides celebrities seeking attention like Katy Perry or total loons like Phyllis Schlafly. So with that in mind that's why I say you have problems with women. You think their pursuit of equality is them asking for special rights. The bottomline is women have only been somewhat equal for 40 years or so. In lots of places in the world women are still property. We're in a transitional phase, there's bound to be some hiccups in the movement
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If there are so many examples, give me some
I'm not wasting my time when it's obvious that you will just poo poo anything I post. Respect goes both ways bro. This discussion started because you and steven wanted to trash talk this woman and feminism, the burden of proof is on you. How about you show how equal women are in gaming?
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Do some research for once in your damn life or something. Don't try to talk about a topic if you don't know anything about it.
So your idea of research is some youtube bloggers who agree with you? I watched them and I disagree with them, are you happy? Btw one was just some bitter guy insulting women he disagrees with, real compelling.
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Also it's a pretty known fact that women get special treatment in life.
It is huh? How about you talk to some women and see if they agree with that. Youtube bloogers opinions are not gonna cut it for this one.
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and another is people trying to talk about a topic without knowing much about it. study. research. back up your claims. counter-argue. do something! ya'know?
You just assume I'm uniformed because I disagree with you. I even offered to answer specific points, not sure what else I can do.
I tried to diffuse this argument but apparently I offended you deeply and you felt like ranting at me, that's fine I apologize for offending you. I'm not gonna continue this discussion if you're gonna keep flipping out though. Call it a victory if you want I do not care. Either way there's no reason to hold a grudge over this, hopefully you see that too.
@Tenser- So Nintendo is punishing all of Europe because of some uptight German laws? Sounds pretty stupid to me.
This is a binding agreement between you, an individual, and Nintendo of Europe GmbH, Nintendo Center, 63760 Grossostheim, Germany.
[...]
1.14 Governing Law
This Agreement and any claims under this Agreement shall be governed by the laws of Germany, to the exclusion of the UN Sales Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods and without reference to conflict of laws principles.
They should have found some alternate solution though.
@DB, This discussion is not supposed to be about feminism, it supposed to be about Anita Sarkeesian, and weither she is an idiot, or a savior. You've made it clear you think she is a savior.
They operate inside Germany, so they're subject to German regulation.
Well they should move to a less ridiculous country if they're gonna serve all of Europe. This is negativity Nintendo doesn't need with a new console.
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Originally Posted by steven
This discussion is not supposed to be about feminism
Yup obviously but like most topics things wander off topic eventually. I think we all pretty much agree that this woman isn't as great as some people make her out to be. The part I'm stuck on is the attitude towards what she was talking about, not her.
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You've made it clear you think she is a savior.
You've made it clear that you have no desire to actually give my side of this a fair chance. I'm just a delusional retard, I get it.
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Jesus, sorry man. I honestly didn't think you'd take offense to that.
That's what happens when you personally insult people for their opinions, they don't like it.
Please don't take offense, but if you really don't understand why people hate her, then your brain is defective.
This is what everyone is freaking out about, right? I treat you guys as if you were my friends... if me and my friends didn't insult each other we'd barely even speak to each other. I'll try not to do it anymore, sorry.
Last edited by Slime Slayer; 12-10-2012 at 07:19 PM..
@steven- You could just stop insulting people for disagreeing with you, that would help. It gives people no where to go except getting defensive and arguing.
I'm not wasting my time when it's obvious that you will just poo poo anything I post. Respect goes both ways bro. This discussion started because you and steven wanted to trash talk this woman and feminism, the burden of proof is on you. How about you show how equal women are in gaming?
I already gave some examples. Your turn. Dismissing your half of the DISCUSSION, as you like to put it, on the grounds of "oh well you'll just disagree with it to just disagree" does not make for conversation/discussion/debate/etc.
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Originally Posted by Dudebro
So your idea of research is some youtube bloggers who agree with you? I watched them and I disagree with them, are you happy? Btw one was just some bitter guy insulting women he disagrees with, real compelling.
So, did you ignore the source video he linked? sounds like you did. not surprised really. And you know what, even if you didn't like that one, what about the others? The one "Girl Writes What" has many good points both for and against and has studied the subject a lot. She's even aired on several different radio shows. But you wouldn't know that because you didn't look.
The last one's not even a blogger, but a recounting of how a guy (falsely) accused of rape was beaten and hospitalized because his identity was leaked to the public. That's why the accused are to remain anonymous. It's for their safety and for general order. But some /feminists/ say that this is fine. Their identity shouldn't be protected because they're horrible people and deserve this. Because it "undermines what it means to be a victim".
But you wouldn't know this. Because no matter what I say you will just poo poo anything I post, no? You've been doing it this entire time.
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Originally Posted by Dudebro
It is huh? How about you talk to some women and see if they agree with that. Youtube bloogers opinions are not gonna cut it for this one.
Child custody andanything having to do with family courts.Selective Service System.The divorce system. (how many cases have you heard of women divorcing men for their money? how many cases have you heard from men?) The apparent fact that "men can't be raped" (no seriously, go look that up).People are more accepting of women. (example: Say a man says he's afraid of women. He's a laughingstock. a failure. He's pathetic. But a woman is afraid of men? Men are such pigs, how could they have done something to make her so afraid?)Men are completely misrepresented in things like television and whatnot. Men are always the dumb, incompetent ones while women are the problem solvers and the ones with any brains.
I could go on, but I'm getting tired.
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Originally Posted by Dudebro
You just assume I'm uniformed because I disagree with you. I even offered to answer specific points, not sure what else I can do.
Wait wait wait, am I being punked here or something? Are you some master troll or whatever? Let me ask you; how many times now have I asked you to actually try to show some points? some form of claim, evidence, or whatever? but you don't. Hell, you even quoted me saying "show me how women are misrepresented" and you just side stepped that entirely.
Don't even start lying to me now.
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Originally Posted by Dudebro
I tried to diffuse this argument but apparently I offended you deeply and you felt like ranting at me, that's fine I apologize for offending you. I'm not gonna continue this discussion if you're gonna keep flipping out though. Call it a victory if you want I do not care. Either way there's no reason to hold a grudge over this, hopefully you see that too.
You have done absolutely nothing to "diffuse" anything about this other than make snide remarks behind your little air of passive-aggressiveness. In all honesty, it's quite pathetic.
You know what, you're right. This /discussion/ is over. If you're not willing to ever discuss anything then there's no point in continuing. Good day, evening, afternoon, night.
And before you or someone else says this for the 4th time, no I'm not angry. I'm not seething with rage, my blood boiling in my vains. I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed with people who are uninformed, unwilling to look up basic information, and unwilling to try to prove any of their "points"while still having the nerve of telling me I'm wrong.
I'm going to bed. I'll check this one more time tomorrow to see if anyone has actually tried to make an effort to raise a discussion.
Edit: You're right, this was supposed to be about Anita. Here we go: She's a scammer, she's gaining popularity for money, she is delusional and thinks that she is just the biggest thing since bottled air and her opinions on women in video games are mostly groundless and she constantly reaches (and reaches far) for anything at all to possibly say to support her cause. Seeing this lack of character, evidence, and content; I am uncomfortable with the fact that she has gained things like $160000 and a free sponsored flight to the Tedx talks.
Last edited by Razeluxe; 12-10-2012 at 07:51 PM..
Reason: added quotes.
Just so I know that I am up to speed, this Sarkeesian chick is basically some chick that has started a movement to alter the depiction of females in video games from a misogynics one to a non-misogynics one? Is that correct? Ok, good for her. I'm all about that. I think most people would be all about that. I think everyone is giving her the green light to come up with said character...oh, but wait, she hasn't. If I've done my homework correctly, she has basically stood on a soapbox, shouted to the internet heavens, and been more than happy to accept a bunch of money from people. Money that was promised to be used to fund more videos that discuss the same topics. If that is what people want to spend there money on, then great.
IMO, this chick doesn't deserve the degree of hate that she is getting, but she also certainly doesn't deserve the love. From what I can tell, she seems to be content standing on her pedistool on her blogs and such, she doesn't seem willing to enact a change. Real feminist, Elizabeth Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Sojourner Truth were willing to go the distance to push for legistlation and policy change. Those types deserve the love.
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Also it's a pretty known fact that women get special treatment in life.
Sorry, but that is one of the better trolling comments I've seen. Yeah, chicks get into clubs without paying cover charges, can talk their way out of speeding tickets, and get dudes to buy them drinks at a bar. That is great in comparsion to the reality of still being 2nd class citizens in the workplace, sufferage, sexual harassment, being the primary victims in most sexual violence cases, and still having their reproductive rights decided primarly by rich, white, men.
I wish I had some real comment on the death of gaming, but I don't think it is dying. The following link is an example of the gaming industry expanding and crossing over into other forms of media and getting recognition for it.
I wish I had some real comment on the death of gaming
I asked I while back for the title to be changed to the death of gaming as we know it, but it didn't get changed. The VGA's from the other night summarizes nicely what this topic is supposed to be about.
@Razeluxe- You're obviously upset about this so I think we should just stop. I don't take kindly to your insults but I'm not gonna bother defending myself about it. Think whatever you want about me, it's all good. I still think there's no reason for grudges but it looks like you're not willing to entertain that idea, your loss. Just know that I'll be leaving this conversation here, it will not influence any other interaction I have with you.
I just want to point out that everyone in this conversation is guilty of trolling, insulting or using backhanded passive agressiveness. This is probably because the subject is very broad, and most of the arguments have at least 2 very valid ways of looking at them. It wasn't handled well, and we are all to blame for this fiasco.
@Razeluxe- You're obviously upset about this so I think we should just stop. I don't take kindly to your insults but I'm not gonna bother defending myself about it. Think whatever you want about me, it's all good. I still think there's no reason for grudges but it looks like you're not willing to entertain that idea, your loss. Just know that I'll be leaving this conversation here, it will not influence any other interaction I have with you.
Fin.
good. because you are horrible at discussion. Even in the end you never try to argue any of my points or present your own. I will honestly say, that I think you're bloody retarded.
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Originally Posted by jim5cents
Sorry, but that is one of the better trolling comments I've seen. Yeah, chicks get into clubs without paying cover charges, can talk their way out of speeding tickets, and get dudes to buy them drinks at a bar. That is great in comparsion to the reality of still being 2nd class citizens in the workplace, sufferage, sexual harassment, being the primary victims in most sexual violence cases, and still having their reproductive rights decided primarly by rich, white, men.
Suffrage: in what way are you talking about? They can vote or run for office
Sexual harrassment: Indeed. what would you propose us do? Somehow force people (yes, all people. this can still happen to men or women.) ((in fact, let's look into this a bit. If a man harasses a woman, the whole world will know about it and take her side.....but what if a man gets harassed? Who's he going to tell? actually more like, who's going to listen? "She's not harassing you she's just flirting." "What are you, gay?" "What's the matter? Don't like aggressive women?"))
Primary victims: Indeed.
Reproductive rights: Explain? I'm not saying I think this is a stupid point, I honestly just don't know what you mean.
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Also bonus points to you for actually giving your own points
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minus points for not addressing any of mine.
Also I don't believe in feminism. I believe in equality. a group of women, for women, about women, will only focus on....you guessed it, women. The same vice versa. Masculinism would be men, about men, for men and would only focus on men. Why not make a group called "the equalists" or something that focuses on how BOTH sides have their own issues that need to be resolved? Can everyone at least agree on this?
By reproductive right decided by rich, white men Jim is referring to abortion rights and measures against family planning which are decided by government.
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