gamer or hacker

[The Good Doctor]

at what point does a gamer become a hacker? if he or she cheats, does it make them a hacker, what if the cheat is a glitch or what if it's by accedent, if this is the case, could a loophole in the system a hack?
what draws the line between the two, and which one is you?

[Slime Slayer]

by hacker im assuming you mean cheater. ill exploit the heck out of glitches in one player games, after all it really is, you vs. the game. 2 player or for a tournament ill play as the game was intended to be played.

ive never heard of the term hacker being used in ways other than cracking code

[count100]

If you were to use cheat codes in a game for a high score. That is farming.
Finding a glitch in a game and using that for high scores. That is farming.
Dying on a level and re-killing enemies, NOT on purpose. That is Gaming.

I don't know what actually a hacker is for gaming tho, but I am a gamer when it is for scores.
I sometimes use cheats and such when I am playing for fun.

[Kugyince]

When playing for just my pure enjoyment and not participating in a contest or attempting a high score I will use every resource the game offers me. I am playing against the computer and not another person. If I know there's a difficult boss coming up I will farm for extra lives/ammunition/health or what have you. I will take what ever the game will give me.

Even when playing a game I will not use easter eggs, game sharks, or save state hacking tools. Those in all instances for me are boring unless they're being used to add extra difficulty to the game.

During a high score run or contest I'll play the game as it was intended to be played.

[Dudebro]

A hacker is someone who alters the game themselves, not someone who just uses glitches they found/heard about. Cheating does not make someone a hacker unless they knowingly alter the game.

I'm a legit player. Offline, solo games I'll use cheats ect but only when I'm bored with the game or have nothing left to do. Cheats take all the fun out a game for me.

[jim5cents]

Originally Posted by count

Dying on a level and re-killing enemies, NOT on purpose. That is Gaming.

i would also say that killing the enemies on a level, completing the level, then replaying that level, that would be farming as well.

when done at the right times (i.e. fill energy tanks on mega man, experience in rpg's, mercenaries mode on re) farming is fine.

[Maquis]

Playing games is meant to be fun. Cheating isn't fun. What fun is there to playing if you have infinite lives, infinite money, super strength and you are indestructible? Where's the challenge?? Sounds like a boring game to me.

I feel the same way about all those walkthrus that are available for every console RPG game ever produced. You know the ones. Download a Final Fantasy walkthru and it comes complete with maps, spell strengths, boss weaknesses and complete step by step go here do this instructions for finishing the game from start to finish. Yeah, you'll beat the game faster than all your friends that didn't use the cheat, but what fun is that?

Regardless, these are single player console games. If you cheat, fine. I don't care. It doesn't impact me at all. So what if you finished Dragon Zombie Warrior Underworld in 2 days and it took me 6 months. You're shelling out $40 or $50 for another game in 2 days. Online MMO games are a different story.

I play Guild Wars online and cheaters are a major problem for any MMO. In guild wars if you are caught cheating you've earned yourself a permanent account ban. I guess here we need to define cheating.
Killing the same monsters over and over and over and over again for loot - That's farming and it's legitimate play.

Discovering the glitch where your Elementalist can stand dead center on the purple rock in the Ring of Fire mission and activate Firestorm for 100k in free gold. - That's cheating and unethical, however it probably wouldn't get you a permaban since it's the game designer's fault. When the glitch is found and fixed, the game company decides whether or not to ban based on several factors. If it's reasonable that an unwitting player could have discovered and used the glitch thru normal gameplay then they aren't banned. If it's obvious that something is wrong with the game and the player takes advantage of it over and over without reporting it then they are likely to be banned if it offered a HUGE advantage over other players. These glitches exist but are quickly found and patched when discovered. Any decent MMO will be 99.9% glitch free. (At least glitches that seriously affect gameplay and the ingame economy)

Discovering how to duplicate an item in your inventory for infinite wealth. - This happened once in GW. It caused a major ruckus when news got out that it was possible. Word was leaked and the design team stayed up all night to figure out how it was done and fixed it. The next morning all players that had dupped items were permabanned from the game and many players that had received dupped items in trade from the dupers were also perma-banned. (2nd accounts for the dupers or just friends that knew what was going on). Again, any decent MMO will not have a way to dup items.

Botting - Using a 3rd party program or script to allow your character to make progress in the game while you are away from the computer. This is cheating and most MMOs will permaban for this activity.

Gold buying and selling - I consider this cheating, but it depends on the game. Most MMOs consider it cheating and will ban for it. Progress in the game should depend on your game playing skills, not the size of your pocketbook. Nobody wants to play with the little rich brat that has the best armor and weapons and spells just because daddy bought them for him. In guild wars, gold sellers are permaban if caught and gold buyers receive temp bans and the gold is removed from their account.

Hacking - Using 3rd party software to manipulate the data going from your computer back to the game server. Hacking is a term used for almost everything that is considered cheating, but really most cheats aren't hacks. Changing the game client on your computer to send different results to the server is hacking. For example, everytime a warrior hits a monster with his axe, he deals 6 to 28 damage. That damage is then modified by different factors such as warrior strength, item spells, enemy armor, etc. But let's say I hack the game client to return a value of 3000 damage to the game server every time I use my sword. I'm now a Super Hacking Warrior and I'll slay all other players in combat. Obviously this is cheating and, yep, you guessed it - permaban.

Scamming. "Psst, newbie, over here. Wanna buy a nice weapon? I'll sell ya this wonderful sword for only 5,000 gold since your still new to the game." The scammer then gives the newbie a piece of junk worth at most 100 gold for the 5k. Scamming is highly unethical. Some scammers will be temp banned or perma banned and others left alone. Newbies are warned about scams and it's pretty much your own stupidity if you are scammed. Trade scams usually aren't ban-worthy. The game designers aren't putting price tags on items. The community does that. Other scams though involved complicated schemes to steal player accounts or items. These will usually result in bans if caught. Scamming isn't exactly cheating, it's more like stealing. If you cheat, you get a zero on the test (disqualified and lose your prize). If you steal, you go to jail (banned).

[count100]

Originally Posted by jim5cents

i would also say that killing the enemies on a level, completing the level, then replaying that level, that would be farming as well.

when done at the right times (i.e. fill energy tanks on mega man, experience in rpg's, mercenaries mode on re) farming is fine.

That is true there. The point that I was making tho is in a game where you die by no purpose fault, (i.e. You just happen to get killed there) and you have to re-do the level thats not a farming case.

I agree that what you mentioned there is a classic case of farming.

[Some Dude X]

Glitch: A hole in the game's code bypassed for your advantage
Hack: A hole in a game's code you re-patched for your advantage.

[The Good Doctor]

Originally Posted by Some Dude X

Glitch: A hole in the game's code bypassed for your advantage
Hack: A hole in a game's code you re-patched for your advantage.

a hack that your talking about is not ,"A hole...you re-patch...," it's a manipulation of the code itself, to rewrite it, not patch it, also it does not have to be the code, it could be as simple as a scripting(script is different than code) with java or keyloging cheat found on games like jka online.

[Dudebro]

Originally Posted by Maquis

I feel the same way about all those walkthrus that are available for every console RPG game ever produced. You know the ones. Download a Final Fantasy walkthru and it comes complete with maps, spell strengths, boss weaknesses and complete step by step go here do this instructions for finishing the game from start to finish. Yeah, you'll beat the game faster than all your friends that didn't use the cheat, but what fun is that?

I disagree. I know some casual RPG fans who would be lost without guides. This is a good thing for people who wanna experience the game but feel overwhelmed by it all. Not everyone is good at figuring things out on thier own.

I'll admit I've used online guides for all kinds of games. But I only do that if I don't care about the game. If it's something I like I'll wait until I'm bored with it.

That's cheating and unethical, however it probably wouldn't get you a permaban since it's the game designer's fault. When the glitch is found and fixed, the game company decides whether or not to ban based on several factors. If it's reasonable that an unwitting player could have discovered and used the glitch thru normal gameplay then they aren't banned. If it's obvious that something is wrong with the game and the player takes advantage of it over and over without reporting it then they are likely to be banned if it offered a HUGE advantage over other players. These glitches exist but are quickly found and patched when discovered. Any decent MMO will be 99.9% glitch free. (At least glitches that seriously affect gameplay and the ingame economy)

Sorry but I don't see 99% being a realistic number. Every MMO I can think of has had countless patches and updates since launch. I doubt any are that spotless.

I can't speak for guild wars but I know FFXI just banned a lot of long time users for knowningly duping end game items. There was a heated debate back and forth but the company refuses to unban any of them(last I heard).
When you agree to a TOS, most of the time it will have something about knowingly manipulating the game against the designers intent. When people click accept they agree to the terms and the company has every right to ban them if they are cheating.
Just because it's the fault of the company doesn't mean they can exploit it. Cheaters now they're cheating. Even if it's a small advantage companies have the right to refuse service. Of course most won't since they want money from these same people.

Gold buying and selling - I consider this cheating, but it depends on the game. Most MMOs consider it cheating and will ban for it.

Yeah I think most people agree it's cheating. It's becoming less taboo now with all these "free" games that have cash item shops though. Even Everquest has a server where currency buying/selling is ok. There's a lot of money to be made and companies will jump on it if it's viable. Hard to blame them if people are stupid enough to do it.

Trade scams usually aren't ban-worthy. The game designers aren't putting price tags on items. The community does that.

I can only speak for FFXI but when someone scams another player the GMs will investigate and usually return the items/gold and suspend the offender. The game is well made and maintained, the GMs are serious and they don't take kindly to people causing trouble. I was in a party one time and all the sudden our white mage disappeared. He was warped to the prison zone and then logged out. Turns out he was harassing someone right before he joined our party. The GM shut him down fast.

[Maquis]

Dudebro, I think we agree on most issues there. I've never played FFXI so I don't know how that game operates, but it sounds similiar to Guild Wars. I know the Arenanet staff would have handled the duping situation the exact same way. When GW had it's duping scandal a lot of people were banned. They yelled and screamed and threw major temper tantrums on the forums but they are still banned. I gotta say that I agree with the decision and i'm glad they are gone.

Perhaps my 99% number is a bit high. I don't know how other games operate, but I think Guild Wars is pretty good in the glitch department. Now, don't misunderstand me. GW has glitches. It has lots of glitches. However I don't think it currently has any major game-breaking glitches that can destroy the ingame economy. When they are found they are patched pretty quickly.

There was one famous incident that occurred before I started playing. The Rare Material Trader (NPC) ingame sells rare mats at standard prices. The most expensive item is an "ecto" and it normally sells for 5,000 gold and the trader will buy it for 3,500 gold. Those numbers flucuate every minute based on supply and demand. One day after a new build release, the trader was selling ectos at 250 gold. Players were buying them up by the thousands. It took a few hours for support to realize what happened and fix it. They then did a full server roll back 4 hours. It was the only time in the game's history that characters have been rolled back.

Scams are a sticky situation. GW doesn't have ingame GMs. It also doesn't charge a monthly fee and GMs are one of the luxurys we don't pay for. If a player is scammed they can report the scammer and if there is proof then the scammer will be banned, but items are never returned to the victims.

I reported a scammer once. I saw a guy in town offering to pay 4000 gold for screenshots of expensive weapons. This is a common scam that unfortunately catches a lot of inexperienced players. (I never really understood why. Typically the newbish players don't have expensive items).
Anyways, I whispered the scammer and told him I had some nice items and would love the chance to earn easy gold. We went to a private area and he asked me to drop my weapons on the ground so he could get a screenshot of the weapon's stats. (Dropping an item on the ground in GW makes it available for stealing). Newbies think it's safe because the scammer is standing wayyyyyyy over yonder so he couldn't possibly pick up the item before the newbie could. (Yeah right, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell ya).

I played dumb. :confused: I told him I didn't know how to drop an item. He nicely explained. Ooops, 1 minute, doorbell....I'll be right back. (I left the computer and made lunch). I came back and he's still patiently waiting for me to drop the loot. I fumbled around some more until....ooops the phone rang. BRB. I managed to waste about an hour of his time while I watched tv and gathered screenshots. He was banned the next day and i didn't lose anything. Playing with scammers can be a very fun and rewarding hobby.

Other types of scams will be ignored by support. If you have a rare sword that typically sells for 400,000 - 500,000 gold and sell it to a scammer for 10,000 then there is nothing support will do. The "merchant" value on all weapons is usually around 400-500 gold and it's the player community that values the rare items at a high price. Support will just say that you should have checked the market before making a hasty sale. It's the same way in real life. If you have a rare comic book in your attic and someone comes along and offers you $200 for it, you can't later sue the guy when you discover the comic is worth $500,000. The comic itself has a face value of 10 cents. You made a foolish sale.

[Dudebro]

Sounds exactly like the scams from Diablo1&2.
They'd claim all kinds of stuff to get your gear on the ground and then use a move to close the distance and boom.

I also remember people being tricked into being player killed.
"I'll kill X monster for you"
Everyone heads out of town.
Other guy goes into hostile mode and comes out swinging.
I admit I got caught by then when I was a noob. A high level barbarian cut through the whole party in one attack.

[The Good Doctor]

i'm sorry, but i don't play that game.

[Dudebro]

Which one? We've brought up 3-4 different ones in the last two posts.

[jink92]

While I fully realise that this may sound very "puritan",
I feel that even using continues is, in many cases, tantamount to "cheating",
Especially in the case of many of the games featured on RetroUprising, which were originally intended to be won in one run, & did not even have "save" capabilities (e.g. the original CastleVania). But my stance changes drastically once a gamer has beat a game; at that point, I feel that the Gamer "owns" the game, & should feel free to do as they wish in order to glean all the fun possible from it. I tend to think of that as a type of self-imposed reward to give oneself for winning...

[Dudebro]

If a game has continues then it's not cheating to use them. Most games start your score over when you continue anyways. But I can understand what you mean. If someone uses something like a save state to continue it's not the way the game was intended.

[The Good Doctor]

speaking of hacking, 60 minutes had segment on it, what do you guys think, i know it's unfortunatly a huge understatment, it's sad but true.

[Maquis]

I don't know. I didn't see the segment.

[ZedIsDead]

Originally Posted by The Good Doctor

speaking of hacking, 60 minutes had segment on it, what do you guys think, i know it's unfortunatly a huge understatment, it's sad but true.

I'm not too concerned. You just have to be careful about what you do on the internet. Seeing that makes me not want to bank online, though.

[Kugyince]

Yeah, we pay nearly all of our bills and do all of our banking online. At one time one of our accounts did become compromised. Thankfully we didn't have to pony up for anything they did and tried to do and within three business days we were issued new cards and everything.

[The Good Doctor]

sad, but all of this is really an understatment we, the problems are more serious, ut i thought it was funny how all the russian hackers were about 10.

[Neutral]

Of course: If somebody plays a multiplayer game, in a way it was not ment by the designers to be played, it makes the person a exploiter. I think its selfsaying.

An hacker is somebody which breaks into compiled code, in order to change it, against what was the intention of the creator.

Thats my two points of views.

Using continues in a game is not hacking if it was a design chooise made by the creator of said game.
If it is cheating and/or exploiting? Well, I say that, that depends on ones opinions. Personally, I don't think it is.

I haven't read the topic, but haven't we shifted focus, sligtly, from games to general behavior on the internet?
I really don't want to go off topic or support the idea of doing it, but if we have then I am happy to give all of you rule of thuimb: Dont do anything on the internet you wouldn't do on the streets of Chicago. Most people never get this, and the rest that gets it is just offened("Who do he think I am? an Idiot?") without giving it a second thought. But I think its worth repeating it.

By-the-way: Nice forum, shiny.. buttons!