Twingalaxies down

[gastrainga]

http://www.kitguru.net/software/gaming/jon-martindale/whats-really-going-on-with-twin-galaxies/

[Barra]

All I have to say to that is "lol"

[NESKING2]

Patrick Scott Patterson shared a link.
18 hours ago near Denton, TX · Edited
Here's something I was alerted to earlier today. It speaks to what has been going on for the past few months.

I feel it's my duty to let the Twin Galaxies gamers know about it. They can make up their own minds.

Walter Day: The real story behind Twin Galaxies | KitGuru - newsle

Walter Day: The real story behind Twin Galaxies | KitGuru
newsle.com
It changed hands a couple of times after the founder, Walter Day, sold it on to pursue his career in music, eventually coming to rest with a pair of arcade owners, where it was relaunched with a...
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Josh Jones Walter doesnt "flee" to India. He goes there around this time every year for his mediation rituals.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Cat DeSpira He was planning on going for a while.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Josh Jones He goes once per year for a few months.
17 hours ago · Like · 3

Tony Temple Patrick Scott Patterson Agreed... Whatever comes out in the wash, it's looking like a looooong way back.
17 hours ago · Like · 3

Patrick Scott Patterson Again... as stated... not the person I feel leaps out of this story.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Josh Jones I dunno how to even process all of it...probably the reason I stayed away.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Josh Jones Seeing Jace's name did throw me off pretty damn good
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Dan Tearle Even I knew Walter goes to India when he can, that made him sound like a scammer!
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Edward Mustache Orndorff This seems too much like tabloid bullshit for me to take seriously.
17 hours ago · Like

Patrick Scott Patterson Not who I refer to, either, J. That news is so old it appeared on Storage Wars.
17 hours ago · Like

Cat DeSpira Just say it: Billy Mitchell.
17 hours ago · Like · 2

Josh Jones Lol. Nice. I dunno whats going on there. I mean when the time is right, it will make sense. I knew Billy had a hand in it somewhere, its a no brainer..Ive known this since Fairfield LAST year
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Cat DeSpira He hasn't been involved with TG since....geez, before Pete? He was NOT involved in TG at all while I was there except at an event or two.
17 hours ago · Like · 3

Josh Jones That doesnt really match up with his name being on award dockets last year for Austin or Fairfield then..
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Patrick Scott Patterson Years ago appeared a self-proclaimed savior. Claims of interest in saving the IVGHOF came with it. In the end, the only people doing any actual work there were pushed out and alienated. Where exactly did that go from there again? This sounds enough like the same playbook for me to give this piece serious consideration.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Cat DeSpira Awards and cards were Walter's independent projects. The Fairfield Event or others like it were not Twin Galaxies events.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Josh Jones Only 2 names can come to mind who may do something. Knucklez, or Todd.
17 hours ago · Like

Patrick Scott Patterson Austin award
Patrick Scott Patterson's photo.
17 hours ago · Like · 1

Cat DeSpira The info -or at least 3/4s of that info above can be found on the 'net. It's been there for months.
17 hours ago · Like

Josh Jones Hm coulda swore his name was on it.
17 hours ago · Like

Josh Jones I appear to be wrong, thanks for clarification.
17 hours ago · Like

Patrick Scott Patterson Bottom line... I've seen what comes of his involvement. Seen it before, three times. This explains the wrench in the gears IMO. Fits too well to not be accurate.
17 hours ago · Like · 2

Cat DeSpira Well, I will be bold and say this: this info in the article, other than Walter fleeing, is not entirely incorrect. It is based on fact...and loads of people know it: somewhere around 50 people as it has been spread from hand to hand, haphazardly along with personal messages, emails and the like.
17 hours ago · Edited · Like · 3

Shawne Vinson Oh no! What happened now?
17 hours ago · Like

Patrick Scott Patterson It's unfortunate that history repeats. No regard for feelings of others? I remember how much the IVGHOF thing hurt Liz and how unfair she was treated there. I remember a TG ref nearly in tears another time. I'm tired of this recycled script.
17 hours ago · Like · 3

Tim McVey Liz was not alone in being trampled in the IVGHoF stampede...
16 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Patrick Scott Patterson I know, but she was the one they backed the car up to run over repeatedly. My initial remark was in the plural tense.
17 hours ago · Like · 3

Cat DeSpira I remember that ordeal. That was terrible. She didn't deserve that.
16 hours ago · Like · 1

Cat DeSpira You know, Scott...this post has every indication of turning into a "shooting the messenger" scenario. Plus, all the past stuff gets dug up and, dear god...no.

I respect your bravery posting this article. I had not the balls and, frankly, all of this scares me. But, dude, that's a can of worms, my friend. Keep your head down. You know how this scene plays "The Blame Game".
16 hours ago · Like · 2

Patrick Scott Patterson I've said all I have to or want to. As I said at the start, people can make their minds up how they choose.
16 hours ago · Like · 2

Richard Carter that article pretty much lists the major stuff. especially where ownership should have been given back to Walter....wowza!!!
16 hours ago · Like · 1

Tim McVey Rick, you might be surprised...
16 hours ago · Like

JD Lowe I don't like how some of that is worded. For example, there's a picture with the subtitle "Walter Day (left) and Billy Mitchell (right) only contested ownership of Twin Galaxies when Hall started showing interest. Source: PowerPak" Which makes it sound like that information came from PowerPak, when it's only the picture that did.

I'm sure there's a surprising amount of this that's true. Still, it had me worried there with some of its wording.
14 hours ago · Like · 2

Thor Aackerlund Yeah I got the distinct feeling reading that article that their sources had some affiliation/agenda, which is almost unavoidably probable given that only a handful of people actually know WTF is happening to being with, so the sources are likely to be on one side or another.

It's just like reading an article about climate change when the 'source' is either a Republican or Democrat. You tend to get a focus on certain aspects, with questionable phrasing, and a selective exclusion of undesired information.

Not crapping on the author or anything, and someday this will make for a fascinating book or film. I know and love Walter, and would love to see the BS end over TG. Unfortunately for all of us, the loudest voices tend to be the pettiest, and instead of unity and a good example (TG has IMMENSE positive potential in the right hands), it's just a disaster the post-Walter years, chock full of silly drama and man children dissing and hating on each other. Over VIDEO GAMES.

Maybe we should draft something that states what gamers really want from TG in a reasonable fashion, and a support for Walter and other people who might be able to get something going that's not endlessly divisive.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Lonnie McDonald Having been involved in attempting twice to buy TG to preserve its integrity and history our due diligence brought many things to light.

I hope the all the past is cleared and TG rises from the ashes with a seriously new mindset.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Arkonviox Thanks for posting this! I read it all, it helped answer most of my questions, what a shame something that could have been great just throws away it's legacy. These people won't do shit with it, If I were more intertwined, i'd take it upon myself to claim twin galaxies, because whose really gonna take legal action? and the scores are mostly public knowledge I'm sure they can be obtained.
13 hours ago · Like

Ben Mullen The main issue i had reading this was that if an article has a persons name followed by one of these ---> : , that is supposed to mean they either wrote or participated in the article, it looks like that was not the case with walter. Hopefully litigation will bring this to a good outcome. But from the looks of it it will take a loooooooooooooooooong while.
13 hours ago · Like · 3

JD Lowe Oh, and I love at the bottom: "All accounts of Twin Galaxies dealings are based on our sources close to the company. We can neither confirm nor deny their statements as factual."

In other words, let's keep fanning that fire juuuuust in case
12 hours ago · Like

Robert T Mruczek Something just stinks about that alleged clause concerning TG reverting back to Walter if a price threshold was not realized by Pete. Pete was a decent businessman outside of TG, I find it unfathomable that he would have agreed to such a stupid clause in the first place. Second, for someone who supposedly wanted to retire, the last thing you would do would be to insert a clause that could potentially drag you back in. Goes to show that he just can't stay out of the limelight.
11 hours ago · Like · 1

Robert T Mruczek This is not the first time that Walter engaged in financial funny business either
Robert T Mruczek's photo.
11 hours ago · Like · 1

Robert T Mruczek
Robert T Mruczek's photo.
11 hours ago · Like · 2

Arkonviox ^ Not surprised at all.
10 hours ago · Like · 1

Robert T Mruczek Not at all...he cheated me out of my 10% ownership in TG (same as he did to Brien King), he tried to extort money from Steve Harris (the two enclosures above), and now this running off to India thing allegedly with $70,000...stinks to the high heavens
10 hours ago · Like

Arkonviox I see why this doesn't come up too often, every time it does it gets ugly. Twin Galaxies deserves to be buried and forgotten. There are too many people involved who are very emotional about it. The whole score thing was a very important part of video game history - I can't deny it - growing up it was a big deal to make a record, but as we got to the mid 90's it became less and less relevant. Today, scoring high in a game means nothing except to those of us from another time. Maybe some games might have significance, but who the fuck wants to make a world record in flappy bird? ...This sucks honestly, but I see why Twin Galaxies never became anything, No disrespect to Walter, he is a business man - I know quite a few like him, that comes with the role. This whole thing blows my mind....but honestly, I never heard of twin galaxies until I met PSP and some of the record setters. I probably knew of it during the late 80's early 90's - I heard this stuff, I probably seen Walter in a few articles. But honestly, most of us in the gaming world don't know about it except for a few of us hardcore folk. It's history, nothing more, just like the Roman Empire, it was great once but will never be that again.
10 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Robert T Mruczek If someone came today onto "Shark Tank" and asked for an investment of $70,000 for even 99% of TG, Kevin O'Leary would say "that's insane...you're dead to me", Mark Cuban would blast any proposed business plan to shreds, and the others would say "I'm out" faster that you could possibly imagine. TG, right now, has no cash value. At best it is a collection of data and anecdotes which its customers like to discuss and share their mutual interest in. At best it is a hobby site thus should be run as much...volunteers, no paid submissions, but if at all possible, sponsorship and, at best, a 2-tier membership structure where for at most $10-15 per year you might get some special value added services or a discount on any TG paraphernalia purchased from their Café Press site or from purchased TG certificates. History has proven that there can be no real profit-generating business model here...at best this is a break-even proposition and should be run with that in mind.
10 hours ago · Like

Jon Stoodley Robert, you're making too many great suggestions, stay out of this
That original article is as clear as mud.
7 hours ago · Like · 1

Tony Temple Let's just be clear about one thing here: Walter hasn't "fled" anywhere with anything.
6 hours ago · Like · 1

Robert T Mruczek He sure as hell took my 10% ownership of "Twin Galaxies LLC" with him
6 hours ago · Like

Daryl Kiddey Robert: Yes TG should be run as it should have been by Walter at first, which is a SINGLE OWNER PRIVATE INSTITUTION with no expectations whatsoever. Any time you take a web property with partners this happens, I had a similar experience.

However this brings a new issue into the light, and its one that while maybe not totally secret, has been overlooked.

right NOW as things legally stand, if Billy wins the case, Then Pete Bouvier will be drug back into this. At this point, ALL "four" owner generations of TG will be involved, and the fact of that matter is probably Hall screwed up. Since legally speaking, at the time the Deal was made as far as I know, "TGI" was still owned by Alder period, and even if "TG" was in dispute, Alder had possession. This means Hall payed Day for Nothing, AND billy can still go after him for the whole value if he wins..

In short, this sounds like a dissolution of the company is inevitable. The important thing here is the database and the name. Any other assets TG/TGI owns are irrelevant to anyone outside the people in the litigation and are going to probably be liquidated.
6 hours ago · Like

Daryl Kiddey And there is not point to the blame game now, the point is to get Twin galaxies into the hands of a single someone that will take care of it.
6 hours ago · Like

Robert T Mruczek Technically speaking, the database in terms of content is not copyright-protected...only the way that the data can be presented is. A statistic itself cannot be copyrighted...MLB already knows this so certainly the same applies to TG. Thus, the database itself has a value only to the extent of avoiding the time to type out years worth of information....otherwise had anyone done so already then they could present the TG scoreboard statistics as of a specific point in time, and legally would be allowed to do so, so long as the way it was presented was different than the way that TG presented the data.

The forums and articles over the years are indeed copyright-protected and have value if presented in historical and educational fashion.

As for the rest of TG's assets, there are the tapes which are strewn about the four corners of the globe, and what little tidbits Walter has accumulated along the way and retained, as well as the brand value which has diminished over time.

It's almost not worth fighting over it, to be honest.
6 hours ago · Edited · Like

Daryl Kiddey true, but the entire database is not available(ie verifier, dates, etc). There for it holds artifact value, even if it isn't copy protected.
6 hours ago · Like

Robert T Mruczek Agree to a point...after awhile, the verifier will become less relevant, after all that information never appeared on the Guinness books of old yet they still sold well. The titles, scores, date achieved, perhaps the venue, and the player names are all that will ultimately matter over time.
6 hours ago · Like

Patrick Scott Patterson The contract between Pete and Walter did, in fact, have such a clause in it. I've seen it... while I was on the staff at TG there was little I didn't know inside there. Pete paid Walter $0 for the company... with the condition that, if Pete didn't bring in $XXXX by a certain amount of time, etc etc. I don't recall the date, as I was more surprised at the terms. That said... here's what I'm most curious about. If the company did or had reverted to Walter... then why did Walter never take possession of it? Things don't typically just revert to a person without something to fill out or sign or something. If you are left something in a will they just don't mail it to you... if you are the owner of abandoned funds you have to fill out claim forms, too. Instead, Pete continued to run the company for at least two years before the sale, with Walter fully aware of that. He was also fully aware of the sale, as he was seen in photographs everywhere at the time it took place. Billy, too, for that matter. That's what I'm most curious about, as it would seem to me that the contract's term of "reverting back to Walter" would require him to re-take possession of it and likely fill out and file legal paperwork of some kind, which as clearly not done or it would have come up during the 1UP deal. Also, since Bouvier was still spending money to run TG and filing it under his taxes even after the "reverted" ownership... well, that could possibly be seen as a form of legal ownership as well. This is a mess... but I don't know that, under the letter of the law, that the ownership simply reverted as by magic... I have to believe there would have had to have been proper legal procedures done in order to repossess it, which were clearly not done, meaning the company was left in possession of Pete. That's my take. CALCIO

[kernzy]

Twin Galaxies

[Barra]

Couple of interesting points:

Originally Posted by TG

have been able to acquire the old original TG Linux servers and have been working hard at recovering all the lost data and restoring it to our new system.

Originally Posted by TG

Twin Galaxies will never be charging for score submissions or adjudication ever again.

[Dudebro]

Does anyone believe their reputation can recover from all the crap they pulled? I'm sure some of their die hard fans lost money on those submissions, was that ever returned?

[gastrainga]

Jace wrote:

"In regard to the people who have paid the submission fee when it was temporarily installed, Twin Galaxies hopes to provide you with a full refund.
Please understand that it was not this new ownership that received the submission money. Our goal is to figure out the best way to get your money returned to you as soon as we can. We have been able to get the payment submission records from the database and so we do have that information. It will take some time as we work through everything and we ask that you please be patient with this process. There is so much to do and we want to do everything correctly and not rushed. Our goal is to definitely make sure that you get your money back. "

[ebinsugewa]

Originally Posted by Barra

no fees

"So you're saying there's a chance.."

[Barra]

Twingalaxies UP

[Ballas]

Originally Posted by Barra

Twingalaxies UP

Now this is where I wish you submit one score and goes to all the "reputable" sites in one go. Big gap in the market for a good app/program...

[maxh]

To have scores from reputable sites post to TG (or one single end source) would be of benefit to anyone interested in tracking or posting scores (I think this is what I read from Ballas' post, though I easily get confused sometimes). Or are you suggesting, to have a single but shared database that is authorized and licensed only on reputable sites? That would be awesome.

I'm not sure what direction RU wants to head in, but if there is a benefit by having some sort of relationship with TG (score submission or other gaming related topics), now would be the time to initiate things as they are likely in a most receptive spot at the moment.

[d3scride]

Jace Hall gives some more insight into the new adjucation process (xposted from Twingalaxies.com forums):

After much consideration, we have concluded that this is a fair point. As such, we will attempt to provide some top level insight into the work that is being done. Discussing this matter has been avoided because we know that it will create more questions than answers and it will fuel speculation, which due to some of the unfortunate history that the community has been through, that may unnecessarily lean toward a semi-negative/cautionary interpretation of things.

For submission and adjudication, we are building an INTEGRATED system that is designed to address these items:

1.) Qualified community/peer review of submissions.
2.) A documented adjudication process per submission that is publicly accessible to all and permanently attached to the score/submission.
3.) The ability and process for the community to question and examine historical scores and permanently ratify, asterix, or expunge from the database.
4.) Adhere to Guinness-specific submission standards and adjudication criteria.
5.) A viewable historical public record of actions/successful adjudications for each participating community member which is used to calculate an overall "adjudication credibility" rating for the member. This rating will then factor into an "authoritative weighting system" that comes into play when voting on a submission.

As mentioned previously, this is an INTEGRATED system, which means that each part described above is tied to/and affects each other part in some way. A total effect is achieved and intended.

Below is all the detail we can provide at this time. Again, this posting is not attempting to answer all questions, and may in fact just create more questions than it solves, but our time is currently limited and we feel it is better spent actually doing the work required, rather than talking about it.

1.) Qualified community/peer review of submissions.
Submission videos will be uploaded through a TG interface, and once uploaded the video will not be alterable. It will allow easy selection of platform/game/variation. Once uploaded the videos will be made public immediately. The submitting user will have opportunity to completely describe everything and anything they want the adjudicators to know and attach that text description to the submission. While voting remains open, in progress vote results will not be visible. When all the voting criteria is met and voting completes, only PASS/FAIL final result is shown, not who voted on what. All of this takes place underneath paid TG Staff moderation and review - however, TG Staff can not vote, ever. Collusion, and popularity voting is not possible within the type of voting system we are implementing. MUCH thought and concern has been given to those issues. Rest assured.

2.) A documented adjudication process per submission that is publicly accessible to all and permanently attached to the score/submission.
A specific PUBLICLY VIEWABLE discussion thread will be created and directly attached to each submission. All participating adjudicators can place their comments and thoughts there. Areas of concern to look for, cheating speculation, etc. Every participating adjudicator will have access to all information as well as the submitting user and the submitting user can answer any questions or concerns raised during the voting period.

3.) The ability and process for the community to question and examine historical scores in the database from any time period and permanently ratify, asterix, or expunge from the database.
This is self-explanatory. It will follow a similar process to the normal score adjudication process, however there will be a few more logical hurdles to clear in order to ensure that the scores that are ultimately being looked at are truly of concern and not frivolous. Historical review is a big deal and is not going to be treated lightly. TG wants its database to become absolutely unquestionable over time and it is only through careful review and consideration that it will ever achieve this goal.

4.) Adhere to Guinness-specific submission standards and adjudication criteria.
The system being put into place has been taking into conscious concern items that have been discussed with Guinness over the last few months. We can not elaborate further. This is not a claim, announcement or public acknowledgement of anything other than the stated previous fact. Please bear with us.

5.) A viewable historical public record of successful adjudications for each participating community member which is used to calculate an overall "adjudication credibility" rating for the member. This rating will then factor into an "authoritative weighting system" that comes into play when voting on a submission.
Every adjudication has an outcome. Since there is a voting paradigm, there is a "winning" side of an adjudication. Where a participating adjudicating user "lands" relative to the final outcome will have an impact on that user's future voting credibility. The more often a user is "right" on a final adjudication result, the more credibility they will build. The more credibility a user has, the more impact they will have on the adjudication/voting process. This credibility has to be maintained and serviced, as it will always be in a very slow state of continual degradation. Also, as other users increase/decrease their relative credibility, the overall bell-curve of the system is affected, causing regular recalculation of the weighting system so that significant disparities can not occur. Under this mechanism, eventually, over time, some users will evolve to be almost referee-ish (in the old TG traditional sense) with the difference being that their authority and credibility was earned via the system and not bestowed by ownership. Additionally, every day and every adjudication becomes an effective checks-and-balances system for all adjudicating members. Regardless, no one single person will ever have the ability to adjudicate a score into the database.

What about private performances? What if I don't want people to see the technique I've developed to get my score? Uploading and making videos public really creates a problem for me!
We have not made a decision on this matter yet. While we completely acknowledge the desire to keep ones "secret sauce" secret, and also understand how it can theoretically increase the fun in competition by adding mystery into the equation, we also keep in mind that a player who wants to play in PRIVATE is asking to be acknowledged for recognition from the PUBLIC - and that can be perceived as a bit of a double standard by some people. We are evaluating this matter closely, and if we do decide to support it, it will require some special engineering and procedures to implement (which is possible to do.)

What if I don't have the ability to upload a video?
This is an exception to the rule, as most people these days do have a way to upload video (more than 48 hours of content is uploaded to Youtube per minute) - however, TG's goal is to try to have as many people participating as possible and is looking into potential 3rd parties that you could send your video tape to who could upload for you. This is an outstanding issue that is still on the table.

I want to record something now and I will submit it later! What are the rules?
Generally speaking, the long standing TG rules for recording a performance are remaining unchanged. However, please keep in mind that under this new system your performance is going to be scrutinized by many people. Please make sure that you include in your recorded performance whatever else you think may be necessary to give anyone watching the confidence they need to know that no cheating is taking place and that all the TG basic rules are followed. This system is hard on cheaters, but light on clearly good legit performances. Adjudicators will be focused on being correct in their voting so that they will build personal credibility, so no one is motivated to view your submission inaccurately on purpose. To do so would mean a drop in personal credibility because it is unlikely that everyone else voting would do the same. So the very nature of the system is just looking for truth. Be truthful in your recordings and you will have no problems!

We will repeat again that everything stated above is a greatly simplified, un-detailed, top level description of some of the work being done. It is not intended to be comprehensive and it does not discuss items such as:


New Track Variation Creation
Live On-Site Ajudication for Events
3rd party integrations that allow for rare earned one-of-a-kind non duplicateable custom certificates, badges, t-shirts, and other items made specifically for users that achieve different levels of status as an adjudicator or as a world record submitting player.
etc.


All of these things are being worked on one step-at-a-time so please continue to be patient with us.

Lastly, it is important to understand that everything that was said above, always will take place under internally paid TG STAFF moderation and review, and our system is not some kind of free-for-all. That being said, all TG STAFF will only ever be ADMINISTRATION, FACILITATION, RULES and STRUCTURE, never adjudication.

Since everything is connected, the engineering on all of this is extensive and complex. We are working on it. There are many questions we can not answer because we simply just don't know yet. Some of these systems have to be turned on (on our private duplicate TG SITE that we test on) and we need to see how they all play together in order to make adjustments and refinements. No system is perfect, and there will certainly be flaws in this new one, but we believe that it is a much better, credible, and transparent way for scores to be adjudicated and documented. It is a way to reward contributors, recognize achievement, involve Guinness (in theory **cough cough**) As you will see, our system is much more elaborate than other sites that may conceptually offer something similar.

Hopefully this post will be of some help - but of course all this is really going to do is raise more questions. Obviously there is a lot more to the system above than what was lightly touched upon in this post! Please bear with us and please do not consider what is said in this post as the final word in these matters. This is a lot of work and we are trying to do it right!

[samejamesbond]

Would you be so kind as to paraphrase this?
It's a little large to say the very least.

[Seahawk]

Why would they be anxious about this? I think it's great that they are finally outlining their processes.

[d3scride]

New update on adjudication process. It's a pretty lengthy post which I had to reread myself a few times to absorb the majority of the info:

The Twin Galaxies Log - Overview of Twin Galaxies’ Score Submission and Adjudication Process

[d3scride]

TWIN-GALAXIES-ACCEPTING-SCORE-SUBMISSIONS